gameazel: Question re: rape and tempting fate

desiree (

gameazel) wrote,
@ 2008-06-20 21:10:00

Question re: rape and tempting fate
A girl just got raped walking through a park (which is rather isolated - the kind where no one can hear you scream) next to my place at 10.40pm last night.

My first reaction to this was, "That was stupid."

Yes, of course we all have a right to walk where we want to, regardless of the time or situation; yes, the rapist is fully accountable for his own actions and cannot place any tiny bit of blame on her; no, she didn't 'deserve it' for tempting the wrong kind of attraction.

On the other hand, why, why would you want to tempt fate like that? You know it's dark, late, deserted, and far away from inhabited areas. Yes, it's a convenient shortcut. But it's still incredibly foolish.

Of course, in a perfect world, none of this shit would happen and we'd all be happily oblivious to the need for caution. However. It isn't! God. It just.. so stupid.

I know it sounds like I'm blaming her. I'm not. Or, at least, I don't think I am? That's what I wanted to know - I'm afraid that I sound like/am one of those people who blame the victim for the crime, whether subconsciously or not.

(22 comments) - (Post a new comment)

	saintmaverick 2008-06-20 02:36 pm UTC (link)
	I take shortcuts like that all the time. Omg scary. (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gameazel 2008-06-21 12:48 am UTC (link)
	I know! God. (Reply to this) (Parent)

	nuanced 2008-06-20 04:50 pm UTC (link)
	that's the thing-- you KNOW it's stupid but you think it wont happen to you. it's like having unprotected sex. things happen to other people and never to yourself. that's probably how she got herself into shit. u been following the euro btw? x (Reply to this) (Thread)

	gameazel 2008-06-21 12:49 am UTC (link)
	Yeah.. I resemble that remark. Heh. Not really, was waiting for the quarters to start. Poor Croatia! And ha Portugal is out; I just have a thing against them. You guys are back from Sicily? How was it? (Reply to this) (Parent)

morphaileffect
2008-06-20 11:49 pm UTC (link)

hello. just wanted to pitch in ^_^v

i think it's unfair to judge that the girl took that shortcut simply because she was careless/stupid. maybe she took it because she was in a hurry, maybe she actually felt like it was safer instead of the longer route because she'd taken it hundreds of times before and nothing had ever happened to her, while something alarming had happened in the longer route - who knows? it may seem 100% objectively foolish to us onlookers, but we weren't in the girl's shoes.

on the other hand, there's no way to justify rape. you can't say "you weren't in the rapist's shoes, so you can't say the girl wasn't asking for it." nobody asks to get raped, aye?

i kind of think it's a good thing though that young women automatically think that going unescorted and defenseless into dangerous places is stupid. while danger is certainly everywhere, it's simply harder to detect in dark, isolated places. that's just the kind of world we live in, so caution is always wise.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	gameazel 2008-06-21 12:47 am UTC (link)
	Yeah; for me, the only thing to do when this kinda stuff happens is to just shut up and learn from the lessons that others have paid the price for. Oh well. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sunflower1343
2008-06-21 03:54 am UTC (link)

Rape happens because there are always times when a woman is vulnerable. Afterwards she and others will say OMG how stupid was she to do that, but really, what she did had nothing to do with it. A rapist will find the vulnerabilities. If not one then another. It's what they're good at. A victim has to come to understand that and accept she did nothing wrong. She's simply human, and she has every right to be. People around her have to understand the same thing. It's all the rapist, and not her.

I'm speaking from a point of view of having been there, and I know that this is the hardest thing to accept. And it's why women won't come forward, because she knows everyone is thinking the same damn thing. That *she* was stupid. That if *she* had acted wisely it wouldn't have happened. We're expecting her to be fucking Obiwan Kenobi and blaming her when she isn't. Not fair.

I'm glad you're thinking about it. Most people wouldn't. *hugs*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

gameazel
2008-06-21 01:24 pm UTC (link)

Hmm. I don't believe I'm blaming her so much as.. well, if you do A, it will, once in a while, lead to B, so try not to do A? I mean, it's wrong, there's no two ways about it, but sometimes life isn't fair so you just have to accept it and work with it. And I'm definitely not saying that it's her fault.

*hugs back* This sucks. The literature I've been reading lately's put me in a frame of mind where men inherently take and women are taken from, and I have to say that I do see where that comes from. It's from our animal instincts, for crying out loud.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

sunflower1343
2008-06-21 02:28 pm UTC (link)

Believe me, anyone who's been raped knows life isn't fair. But what I think you're not seeing is that not walking alone after dark doesn't make you less likely to be raped (whoa, quadruple negative). A, in this case, doesn't lead to B. The majority of women are raped by men they know. I was, in broad daylight, at home, by someone I'd called a best friend.

I'm no different than that young woman. Sure, there are things I could have done that wouldn't have resulted in rape that day, like not be friends with him, or not let him into my apartment that day. I could have been a shut-in and never had that happen. Second guessing yourself goes on endlessly for the victim, until hopefully you realize that all you're doing is trying to blame yourself instead of the one really responsible. Society tends to try to blame you too. We tend to make excuses for the man (animal instincts), while shifting blame to the victim (A leads to B, so try not to do A), even if we don't mean to do it.

But what really leads to being raped is simply meeting a rapist, and they're as likely to be sitting next to you at the dinner table as they are lurking in some alley. If not walking alone in the dark makes you feel safer, great, but it shouldn't, which is a sad thing indeed. :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

gameazel
2008-06-22 01:36 pm UTC (link)

I'm so sorry that you've suffered in this manner. *hugs*

I definitely agree with what you said about rape occuring in any situation, but I think, going back to the A & B thing, while B is not necessarily caused by A all the time, doing A does expose one to a high possibility of B occuring. In mathematical terms, A is a proper subset of B (of course, this is bearing in mind the low chances of rape actually occuring in the first place).

I guess what I'm saying here is that most cases of rape are unavoidable, because the victim simply doesn't expect it to happen. However, when it's something like this, and when one has heard of previous incidents involving dark areas and late nights, it'd be the safer and wiser choice to not put yourself at risk.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

	gameazel 2008-06-22 01:41 pm UTC (link)
	And, well, I think yellowvalley used a great term below - the inherent risk of walking alone at night is greater than that of most other situations. (Reply to this) (Parent)

yellowvalley
2008-06-22 02:28 am UTC (link)

I see what you are saying here, actually, because I admit to thinking the same thing: not blaming the victim AT ALL, at least I hope not, but thinking there are some inherent risks (whether or not their should be) to certain things that maybe I wouldn't do EVEN THOUGH WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO.

I've done the same thing, walking alone, in a dark area at night, and remember feeling scared at the time, and saying to myself "that was stupid" afterwards, even though I'd come out of it safe.

And while the person above me is correct in saying that most rapes happen with those the victim knows, if you look at percentages (i.e. # of women who are alone in an apt. with a friend and the percentage of those who get raped in that situation per day vs. women who who walk alone in isolated areas after dark on a weekend night and the percentage of those who get raped in that situation per day) I'm thinking there'd probably be a bit of difference in the percentage. I'm interested to know, actually, I think i'm going to research that a bit once i'm done with this comment.

That being said, she should not be treated (nor the rapist) any different at all from someone who avoided that situation and still got raped. As you seem to agree.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

	gameazel 2008-06-22 01:38 pm UTC (link)
	Good phrase - "inherent risks". Word. And, yes, theoretically it seems highly likely that there'd be a pretty significant difference between those kind of statistics. 100% rapist's fault. (Reply to this) (Parent)

sunflower1343
2008-06-22 02:33 pm UTC (link)

I think you might be surprised. Here is a good resource for prevention tips, and with a lot of statistics (on another link on the site):

http://www2.ucsc.edu/rape-prevention/safety.html

The saddest statistic is the 1 in 3 women being raped. I didn't believe that until after many years I finally admitted to friends and family I'd been raped. Then they all started talking. Four women in my family, and six friends. It makes you cry if you think too much about it. :(

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

yellowvalley
2008-06-22 05:53 pm UTC (link)

According to the U.S. Department of Justice:
One of every four rapes take place in a public area or in a parking garage.
28% of female victims reported that the offender was a stranger.
70% of rapes occur between the hours of 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.
At least 48% of rapists were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
In 30% of rapes, the offender used a weapon.
In 47% of rapes, the victim sustained injuries other than rape injuries.

(All statistics are taken from: Violence against Women, Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Dept. of Justice, 2001.)

I think the only thing we really can do is just be aware and try to keep safe as much as we can. Which, a part of that is, don't walk through a park alone (preferrably at all actually) at night. But just because she did A, does not mean she's responsible for B happening in no way shape or form. I'm not saying she earned it or she brought it on herself, I just wish she would have found another way to where she was going, that's all.

1 in 3. Yeah, that sounds about right, unfortunately. I don't think it's going to change very much anytime soon either, with the mentality of men and the attitudes in our society. Actually, it's quite possible I know more women who HAVE been than haven't. Definitely cry worthy for sure.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

sunflower1343
2008-06-22 09:52 pm UTC (link)

I understand what you're trying to say, I really do. And I appreciate the fact that you understand the difference between showing risk and blame. Most people think they are the same, hence my defensiveness.

But really, the majority of rapes occur where the woman feels safest. 73% are inside: at home or a friend's home or a building at school; 72% among and by male acquaintances. Especially while drinking or doing drugs. (Statistics from the 2005 DOJ National Crime Survey)

If young women want to use stats to protect themselves, then they're far better off not drinking/doing drugs with men, and especially won't go somewhere alone with men if they have been. Sure, don't walk alone at night. But don't do other things which are far riskier. And don't assume you're safe and it won't happen to you, because that's when it's mostly likely to.

Ah, what a sad topic. I need to go read some silly manga.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

yellowvalley
2008-06-22 10:17 pm UTC (link)

Amen. However, saying that drinking with men alone is riskier than walking at home alone at night is my issue. Yes, 73% of rapes happen inside, but what I'm saying is that tons more women do that on a daily basis than walking home alone at night, so of course there is going to be an increase in numbers. I'm talking about the percentage for each instance: A woman drinking with a male "friend" one night and her possibility of getting raped, and A woman walking alone one night and her possibility of getting raped. After all, I'm sure we spend more than 73% of our lives inside, so it makes sense that we are attacked the most there. So, actually, I'm sure the risks are greater walking alone at night on an individual basis. Now, that's not to say that we shouldn't be diligent while we're at home, quite the opposite, but I'm worried that that skewed percentage will make women LESS diligent in public situations or less likely to avoid those situations that are actually riskier.

LOL. I think I'm going to go watch a happy, fluffy movie. :D

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

sunflower1343
2008-06-23 01:11 am UTC (link)

There are no stats on that so it's hard to say; no one tracks how many women walk around at night alone and are never bothered. I take all my walks at night, though I do take my good-for-nothing dog with me.

From what I've read, because for a while I was obsessed with trying to figure out *why*, rapists tend to attack women inside because it's easier to isolate us and to remain hidden while committing the act. It may have less to do with that being where we are most of the time, as opposed to that being where it's easiest. But then again, it's hard to say.

Also I think people tend to associate rape with parks and dark alleys. Because of that a lot of guys (85% of them in fact) don't think that what they do is rape because they aren't hunting women with ski masks on. They just force some sex on a date, and that doesn't meet their definition of rape. That's another reason why I think much more attention needs to be paid toward rapes done inside, between acquaintances, so more men learn that it's wrong.

(And too while I discuss women, I do know that all these stats include men. My husband is, sadly, also a rape victim, though it helped us understand one another. But I have no idea how gender skews any of this.)

OK, back to happy movies.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

naanima
2008-07-08 12:29 am UTC (link)

I know this is a really late comment, but just my two cents.

When murder victims are found in a dark alley or the park or were taken while walking alone in the evening, no one automatically think "Oh, that's rather stupid."

I get what you are trying to say that we don't live in an ideal world, I agree with you whole heartedly that women need to protect themselves and be aware of the danger. However, I do see a problem when the first reaction for a rape victim is, "Well, that's rather stupid." Instead of, "Get the culprit and bring him to justice."

(Reply to this) (Thread)

gameazel
2008-07-08 01:27 am UTC (link)

Ehhh. I don't exactly agree with you about the difference between reactions to murder and rape victims, but I can agree to disagree about that, and it's not a big issue.

I know what you mean, and that's what I'm worried about and trying to change in myself. I don't know. Even if it weren't my first reaction, I do still think that there is a case to be made for thinking that. Mm. Not putting this well.

Btw, how awesome was the final??? Nadal rocks!!

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

naanima
2008-07-08 01:33 am UTC (link)

Ehhh. I don't exactly agree with you about the difference between reactions to murder and rape victims, but I can agree to disagree about that, and it's not a big issue.

Fair enough.

No, I think I know what you are trying to say. I think, it says a lots about you as a person that you are willing to question your own reactions. It is something that should be admired. As for your point about her being more aware of the consequences I agree with you whole-heartedly. It drives me insane when I female friends does things that put them in dangerous situations, and they don't seem to realise it is dangerous to begin with. On the one hand it is a good thing that they think the world is a save place, on the other hand it is a sense of naivety that is -very- dangerous.

OMFG! NADAL WAS AWESOME! I LOVE how he just climbed on top of the boxes to reach his family and then just kept on going until he reached the Spanish Royal family. And Federer put up an awesome fight. It wasn't an easy match and I kept on making really high squeaky noises, but gods what a brilliant match.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

gameazel
2008-07-08 01:45 am UTC (link)

They were both so exhausted by the end of it, and Nadal was crying! Awwwww. Fed does look pretty good in the cardigan-pants outfit; the preppy look suits him. After the first two sets, I felt really bad for Fed (even though I'm a Rafa fan) cos it seemed like, no matter what he did, Nadal just had one better. Glad that they managed to make it a five-setter; this is, surely, one of the classics.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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